estimates that if the bush taxes remain in effect, that the budget will run up to $4 trillion. i want to get confirmation of that, please. guest: oh, you mean -- i think, crystal, what you're asking is, if the bush tax cuts stay in place, will the deficit run up to $4 trillion? i don't think that's the number. that would be about -- well, it would be quadruple what we're at now, so i don't think that's the number. i haven't actually looked at the charts lately. most economists and most official budget forecasters, the c.b.o., which is the congressional budget office, the o.m.b., which is the president's budget office, and even most independents believe that if the bush tax cuts continue in effect, then that will increase, that will tend to increase the long-term forecasts for the deficit, and you add up all those deficits, and you get the big national debt, which is now more than $13 trillion.